Romper

Did Trump Really Change Positions On Torture? It Appears He Still Feels The Same

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In a move that surprised no one, Donald Trump reportedly told The New York Times during a sit-down with the paper's editors and reporters this week that he's still all-in for waterboarding. So, despite contradictory reports and the fact that the man the president-elect may nominate as secretary of defense reportedly told him he "never found it to be useful" in eliciting information from the military's enemies, Donald Trump has not changed his position on torture. Trump has proved over and over again that he is not going to perform the elusive "pivot" that much of the nation so desperately needs, at least when it comes to many of his racist and supremely uniformed stances — and this complicated moral, ethical, and scientific issue is no exception.

News that Trump may have signaled a softening in his enthusiastic advocacy of reinstating of such inhumane (and, arguably, ineffective) "enhanced interrogation" techniques emerged when he told the Times he was "impressed" with Gen. James Mattis' take on the the question. "'Give me a pack of cigarettes and a couple of beers, and I’ll do better,'" Trump recalled Mattis, a frontrunner for the defense secretary position, a retired Marine Corps general, and a 44-year military veteran, telling him. That, of course, is according to a transcript of the meeting Trump held with The Times. Mattis, apparently, has determined from his extensive military experience that establishing a rapport with prisoners a more reliable means of extracting from them vital information.

Drew Angerer/Getty Images News/Getty Images
BEDMINSTER TOWNSHIP, NJ - NOVEMBER 19: (L to R) President-elect Donald Trump shakes hands with retired United States Marine Corps general James Mattis after their meeting at Trump International Golf Club, November 19, 2016 in Bedminster Township, New Jersey. Trump and his transition team are in the process of filling cabinet and other high level positions for the new administration. (Photo by Drew Angerer/Getty Images)

Trump's apparent perceptiveness to this perspective prompted some media outlets to run articles claiming that the soon-to-be Commander in Chief had reversed himself on the issue. Foreign Policy, for example, posted a piece Tuesday bearing the headline "In Stunning Reversal, Trump Scraps His Calls to Bring Back Torture." But as Slate's Fred Kaplan points out, Trump actually filed away the opinion of a person who knows much, much more about the military than he does, regurgitated it back to the Times, and then doubling down on one of his many incendiary campaign promises. "And when he said that, I’m not saying it changed my mind," Trump said soon after recounting Mattis' views, according to the transcript.

He elaborated:

TIMOTHY A. CLARY/AFP/Getty Images
Demonstrators from the group 'World Can't Wait' hold a mock waterboarding torture of a prisioner in Times Square 11 January 2008 to mark the sixth year anniversary of when the United States opened the camps at Guantanamo. Waterboarding is a form of torture that consists of immobilizing a person on his or her back, with the head inclined downward, and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. AFP PHOTO / Timothy A. CLARY (Photo credit should read TIMOTHY A. CLARY/AFP/Getty Images)

In other words, it appears that the man who is about to become the next president of the United States has admitted that he would be "guided" by Americans who want to see waterboarding, a simulation of drowning, and many other horrors practiced by the military. This despite the fact that there is no real evidence that torture even works — but no shortage of research that suggests that it could actually be detrimental to the task of extracting potentially lifesaving information from terrorists, for example. (The Trump transition team did not immediately respond to Romper's request for comment and clarification on the issue.)

In a 2010 column for The Guardian, researcher and science writer Martin Robbins laid out some of the science-backed reasons torture isn't the essential tool some believe it to be, like that memory is unreliable and even less so when a person is subjected to stress — such as torture.

But most convincingly, Robbins writes that torturing a person is, ultimately, a really good way to get them to tell you exactly what you want to hear. He cited the observation former FBI agent Ali Soufan, who has experience interrogating al-Qaeda operatives and who discussed the pitfalls of torture with Time's Bobby Ghosh in 2009:

Still, Trump has consistently advocated for the reimplementation of waterboarding, and other forms of torture throughout his campaign. At a campaign rally in Columbus, Ohio, last year, he told the crowd that "only a stupid person would say it doesn't work."

"Would I approve waterboarding? You bet your ass I would — in a heartbeat," he said at the time, according to The Washington Post. "And I would approve more than that. Don't kid yourself, folks. It works, okay? It works."

Although most American generals and admirals share Mattis' more conservative views on waterboarding, Trump is filling his administration with men who have come out in favor of it, including Vice President-elect Mike Pence, and his picks for national security adviser and C.I.A. director, Foreign Policy reported.